October 1961 Unknown Location Billy James interview, New York City, New York Fully researched interview from The Fiddler Now Upspoke vol. 1: Supposedly, but disputably so, the very first Bob Dylan interview ever, conducted by Billy James of Columbia Records in order to get information for the sleeve of Dylan's first album and for general promotional purposes. James, who was to become a close friend and adviser to Dylan in the early years and who appeared with Dylan at many press conferences was given the job of promoting Columbia's new rising star. James recalls the interview thus: "Hammond called me and said: 'Billy, I have a marvelous boy in the studio right now. Do you have a moment to come up? I knew that it was happening ... right there! He had such an incredible blend of influences, and presented them with conviction. Bobby was reluctant to talk about his past. I had encountered that often before. I was really startled to hear of all the places he had been to. He spoke with knowledge of all those places, not like the traveling salesman who only knows the inside of his hotel room." I have tried to reconstruct the interview, as far as possible, using the circulating tape (which is in poor quality and very fragmented), two articles by Barry Miles (New Musical Express 24 April 76; 2 July 77) the Miles hook - In His Own Words and by reference to Stephen Pickering's Praxis One. In the first NME article Miles gives an interview date of August 1961 which he changes to October 1961 in the second NME article: Heylin gives a date of November of that year. Since Dylan didn't sign to CBS until October 26th 1961, the interview is most unlikely to have been before then and a suggested date based on available evidence is late October - early November Dylan: Well let me say that I was born in Duluth, Minnesota - give that a little plug. That's where I was born and uh, out in the midwest most of my life. Well, about three-quarters of my life around the midwest and one quarter around the southwest - New Mexico. But then I lived in Kansas - Marysville, Kansas and, uh, Sioux Falls, South Dakota. I bounced around a lot as a kid. James: Was that your choice ? Dylan: It was my choice partly. Partly it wasn't. I ran away a lot - stuff like that. I'd rather say just that. James: When was the first time you ran away as you put it? Dylan: I took off when I was in New Mexico. I lived in Gallup, New Mexico. James: How old were you then ? Dylan: Uh, about seven. Seven - eight - something like that. For the most part my base has been in upper - way upper - Minnesota. Almost to the border. Can I mention the town? Hibbing, Minnesota - that's a mining town - lumber town. I was there off and on ever since I was about seven to seventeen. James: You were in Gallup when you were seven and you took off? Were you alone? Dylan: Yeah, well, I was with a carnival when I was about thirteen and I used to travel with a carnival - all kinds of shows ... James: Where did you go with the carnivals? Dylan: All around the mid-west. Uh, Gallup, New Mexico, then to Texas, and then ... Lived in Gallup, New Mexico and ... James: How far did you get when you were seven and left Gallup? Dylan: Oh ... Well, I was with an uncle and, uh, I was in Texas, then Kansas. But this stuff you see, I can't really remember so hot. All I remember is basic - base things. Where I could, uh, just base things, sort of like ... James: Did you go to school much? Dylan: Yeah, I went to school. I graduated. I graduated from high school - that's where I graduated - Hibbing. James: I see. Did you go to high school for four years in Hibbing? Dylan: Well, I graduated. I skipped a grade. James: How long were you with the carnival? Dylan: I was with the carnival for a long time every year. I was with the carnival summers and even part-ways into the winters. James: What did you do? Dylan: Uh, roustabout. I sung around. I didn't sing for any money but I learned a lot of songs in the carnival. Lot of songs that people are singing today I learned in that carnival. That's why I know all these songs they do now - at least a folk song - I've heard a version of it or something like it before. James: And you have a good memory? Dylan: Yeah. I guess I've memorised a lot of what I've heard - things I can remember back. Well, I write a lot of songs and I forget them. As soon as after I write them or sing them out loud - to myself or something - and then I forget 'em. But a lot of times when I take the time to write them down I usually sing 'em once in a while. I just wrote a new song, about oh, last week about New York. I wish I would have recorded it. Some people are singing it now at the Blue Angel: Ian and Sylvia. I taught it to Ian. James: What made you start singing? Dylan: Uh, well, I just did it you know. It was a natural thing to do. I started a long time ago too. I started singing after I started writing. I started that when I was about ten. Ten or eleven - and started out just country and western - Hank Williams, Lefty Frizel kinda things. Hank Williams had just about, had just died and I started playing sometime around there. James: Was he one of your first influences? Dylan: Yeah, I sang - I tried to sing everything he would sing. James: What other influences have you had? Dylan: Oh ... I've had a lot of people that I tried to do things the way that they did. Ah, as it stands now, there's influence that maybe I've taken. I don't really know the extent of the influence that they have on what I do. Of Hank, Hank Williams was the first influence I would think. I guess for a longer period of time than anybody else influenced. Uh, nobody influenced what I wrote at that age because I didn't really see anything that anybody wrote. James: Well, let's put it this way, did you have any idols when you first started writing? Dylan: Yeah, well, sure, sure. Well not when I started writing, when I was singing. I never sang what I wrote until I got to be about eighteen or nineteen. I wrote songs when I was younger, fifteen, but they were songs. I wrote those. I never sang anything which I wanted to write. Y'understand? The songs I wrote at that age were just four chords rhythm and blues songs. Based on things that the Diamonds would sing, or the Crewcuts, or groups like this, the uh, the, you know, In The Still Of The Night kinda songs, you know. But I don't know, you know, whatever hit me. James: What are your earliest memories of singing? Dylan: Well, I've been singing for an awful long time. First guitar I ever had was a very old guitar and the strings were about an inch from the keyboard. That's why I use a flat pick when I play now - and I never got unused to using that flat pick - because I could never get those strings. They were heavy strings and my fingers hurt. James: How old were you? Dylan: About ten. James: Who gave it to you? Dylan: Down at uh, uh ..I got it in Chicago on the South Side. I think from a street singer. I didn't get it from him, I got it from a friend of his - Aravella Grey. He was the singer and, uh, let's see - there's Sioux Falls South Dakota. I learned a lot of songs there. I learned - not a lot, but I learned. I didn't learn songs, I just learned ways of singing. I learned the way of singing I do. I didn't really learn so many songs. There was this fella there on a farm right in Sioux Falls, South Dakota - a little bit out - played autoharp. And he was just a farmhand there. He was from Kansas. I learned just ways of singing from people like that. But I never really heard any other way. I played piano when I was seventeen. I played piano for this rock 'n roll singer. His name is Bobby Vee and he's a big star now, I guess. James: Now where was this? Dylan: That was in Fargo, North Dakota. Then we went all around the midwest. Went to Wisconsin, Iowa, toured around there and then I left. James: How long were you with him? Dylan: I was with him for about, uh, every night - just about every night - for about a month or two. And then as soon as I left him he got on another recording label and then I saw his picture in big picture magazines and that kind of stuff not too long after that. So that was sort of a disappointment. But I always figured that - I just like to feel that I know where I'm at. Because if I know where I'm at, then I figure I got anybody beat. Because then if nothing happens that I expect to, then if I don't get some girl that I like, or if I don't get something like that, I always just figure that if I know where I'm at, then nothing will hurt me and then I'll never be disappointed. Then if something comes up, you know, then it's for the good. I mean, it's not really pessimistic or anything like that, but it's just that I like to feel that I know where I'm at. James: Do you? Dylan: Yeah, pretty sure I do. I'm at the stage now where I never thought I could sort of look back and see something but I knew I could sing better than all those people that are singing now. And I knew that I could sing the same songs much better if only I had the chance to and I'm just getting that chance to in New York. I had the chance to around the country - but I can't reach as many people around the country. And I've had the chance just breaking for me now in New York. Because my idol is really - like when I'm even on the stage - and not even on stage - my biggest idol goin' all through my head all the time is Charlie Chaplin. And, uh, it's, uh, well, it takes a while to explain it but I'd say he's one of THE men! James: When did you first see Chaplin? Dylan: Ah, I seen some of his films. I just sort of knew who he was and that kind of stuff. Vaudeville type of thing. Will Rogers. And I never really met anything ... I never really came across anything until ..- I never came across ... I never lived in a big city until I lived in New York and, uh, I don't think it's got the best of me. At least I know it hasn't got the better part of me. In fact I don't think it's touched ... It might've touched me a little bit. In fact it has touched me a little bit. But I never lived in a city that was more than 15,000 people and there's an awful lot of difficulty here ... [Tape breaks.] Dylan: [Talking about first arriving in New York City] ... and I was very stupid at the time. I was with a friend of mine, and I played, and they flipped, and I figured ... James: Which Cafe? Dylan: Cafe Wha?. I didn't know anything. They were having a hootenanny and that kind of stuff and I asked if they would give me some money to play, and he looked at me and he said he would. "I'll give you a dollar." So he gave me a dollar to play in the hootenanny. No, in fact, it came to a dollar-fifty. And I played there and they flipped. They really did. I figured if they liked me so much that maybe someone would have a place to stay that night 'cause I didn't have a place to stay that night. So I asked from the stage and about four hands went up. So my buddy and I, we sort of went and checked 'em all and picked out a fellow. He was with a girl. And my buddy says to me, "You don't look so hot", that's what he said. He said, "He looks pretty gay", [laughs]. And I said, uh, I didn't really know anything about that kind of stuff. Well I knew, anyway, he was with a girl. And so we went up with him and the girl got off at 34th Street and we got off at 42nd street [laughs]. Well, we went in a bar first before we went to find a place to stay and we met his friend Dora. Dora was his friend who stayed with him. And we all went to a party. And that was my first night in New York. [Talking of the folk scene] I sense they're liking me. Maybe not the music so much. Maybe they don't even like the music but I feel like, if they saw me in the street or playing someplace, I feel like they wouldn't be so friendly. I like the land. The people are strange in the West. I like some of the people. Don't like some of the people. Hard, which I never could see. Very hard people. And down South it's worse than that. I can't stand city people from the South. I hate ... I can't stand, anywhere they're thinking ... [Tape breaks] Dylan: I'm not a folk singer. I just sing a certain place, that's all. And ... James: Is Woody a folk singer? Dylan: Woody was a folk singer. Woody was a folk singer. James: Why do you say you're not? Dylan: Ah, Woody was a folk singer to the point. Woody was a glorified folk singer. Woody was a man that went back ... Don't print this on the record. James: No man, no. Dylan: Well, you see, Woody was a man who dwelled on a simpleness because he was getting attention for it... [Tape breaks.] Dylan: I play the piano. I used to play the piano. I used to play great piano, very great. I used to play piano like Little Richard stuff only an octave higher. And everything came out... He played, he had a big mistake. His records were great records but could've been greater records. His mistake was he played too low. If he had played high everything would have compensated. Do you listen to Little Richard? James: No. Dylan: Well, Little Richard' something else. He's a preacher now. But I sort of played the piano in his style. And I played everything high and amplified it.